> What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > died and can do nothing about it?
> Sounds sadistic.
Even worse it can be for simply not believing, apparently. You can live your life like a monk, hurt nobody, commit no crimes but if you don't believe then you are roasted next to Hitler and Stalin.
The Christian view of justice is warped enough that none should ever be allowed to sit as a judge.
-- "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Nietzsche
On Feb 27, 6:58 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [Eris]
> > What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > > died and can do nothing about it?
> > Sounds sadistic.
> Even worse it can be for simply not believing, apparently. You can live > your life like a monk, hurt nobody, commit no crimes but if you don't > believe then you are roasted next to Hitler and Stalin.
Don't be silly, Hitler confessed in his last minute and now he's in Heaven with the other Believers.
On Feb 27, 6:58 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [Eris]
> > What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > > died and can do nothing about it?
> > Sounds sadistic.
> Even worse it can be for simply not believing, apparently. You can live > your life like a monk, hurt nobody, commit no crimes but if you don't > believe then you are roasted next to Hitler and Stalin.
> The Christian view of justice is warped enough that none should ever be > allowed to sit as a judge.
LL: Exactly--or sit on a jury. Or, to take it to its logical conclusion, hold any political office or teach in a public school or university. Maybe they should also be kept out of banking or any other industry that deals in finance--in fact, anything that requires rational thinking.
On Feb 27, 7:33 am, "Bob T." <b...@synapse-cs.com> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 6:58 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [Eris]
> > > What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > > > died and can do nothing about it?
> > > Sounds sadistic.
> > Even worse it can be for simply not believing, apparently. You can live > > your life like a monk, hurt nobody, commit no crimes but if you don't > > believe then you are roasted next to Hitler and Stalin.
> Don't be silly, Hitler confessed in his last minute and now he's in > Heaven with the other Believers.
LL: Same with a lot of people who were executed for their crimes and others who died in prison of natural causes but found Jebus first.
buddha said: " you will not be punished for your anger. you will be punished by your anger."
well in a real life situation the person who is of the highest authority takes responsibility. while we can certainly take many people to task for the wrongs they have done, we still need to realize that the concept of an allmighty all knowing god would be the most guilty candidate for all the wrongs that were done
so what happened to "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone"?
the god concept of semitic faiths is a concept with several holes in it.
we can wonder and investigate regarding any "intelligence" behind the design of creation and the concept of the first cause.....
..BUT the religions of the Middle East fail terribly in addressing our concerns and curiosity.
...one of the reasons I became an atheist is that I recognized the rejecting the religion of Islam (and xtianity and Judaisim) is similar to rejecting the ancient belief that a god rod a chariot across they sky to make the sun rise and set. the thinking and path was wrong.
we all have the same questions but those who are atheists are genuinely trying to find answers.
as buddha said: " you will not be punished for your anger. you will be punished by your anger."
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:20 AM, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 6:28 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote: > > What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > > died and can do nothing about it?
> > Sounds sadistic.
> LL: Exactly the right word for it. Sadism perpetrated by the supreme > sadist.
> ************************************
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On Feb 27, 6:28 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > died and can do nothing about it?
> Sounds sadistic.
Yes, it sounds sadistic. Who says that God will punish someone for eternity anyway. God is good and He will never do that. Everybody is given the chance to be with God or not, that's all. If you choose to be with God, then you're choosing heaven, otherwise you will rot in hell.
Hell is not a physical place BTW, the same way as heaven and purgatory.
> Yes, it sounds sadistic. Who says that God will punish someone for > eternity anyway. God is good and He will never do that. Everybody is > given the chance to be with God or not, that's all. If you choose to > be with God, then you're choosing heaven, otherwise you will rot in > hell.
You have no idea how much I would rather rot in hell with Albert Schweitzer, Gandhi, Confucius, Buddha, Ricky Gervais, Rowan Atkinson and my daughter than be in heaven with Jeffry Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Torquemada, Kirk Cameron, David Limbaugh, Rush Limbaugh, Charles Colson, Tom DeLay, Duane Gish, Donald Wildmon and a host of other kooks and insults to the phrase human being.
-- "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Einstein
"If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one." [Russian Proverb]
On Feb 27, 5:47 pm, Tracey <Tracey.Maddow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 6:28 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > > died and can do nothing about it?
> > Sounds sadistic.
> Yes, it sounds sadistic. Who says that God will punish someone for > eternity anyway. God is good and He will never do that. Everybody is > given the chance to be with God or not, that's all. If you choose to > be with God, then you're choosing heaven, otherwise you will rot in > hell.
LL: Yes, we know the routine. But what does rotting in hell for all eternity do for anyone? What's the purpose? Who is served by having people rotting in hell? The people in hell aren't going to come back to life, are they?
> On Feb 27, 5:47 pm, Tracey <Tracey.Maddow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 27, 6:28 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > > > died and can do nothing about it?
> > > Sounds sadistic.
> > Yes, it sounds sadistic. Who says that God will punish someone for > > eternity anyway. God is good and He will never do that. Everybody is > > given the chance to be with God or not, that's all. If you choose to > > be with God, then you're choosing heaven, otherwise you will rot in > > hell.
> LL: Yes, we know the routine. But what does rotting in hell for all > eternity do for anyone? What's the purpose? Who is served by having > people rotting in hell? The people in hell aren't going to come back > to life, are they?
> **************************
> > Hell is not a physical place BTW, the same way as heaven and > > purgatory.- Hide quoted text -
On Feb 27, 6:14 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [Tracey]
> > Yes, it sounds sadistic. Who says that God will punish someone for > > eternity anyway. God is good and He will never do that. Everybody is > > given the chance to be with God or not, that's all. If you choose to > > be with God, then you're choosing heaven, otherwise you will rot in > > hell.
> You have no idea how much I would rather rot in hell with Albert > Schweitzer, Gandhi, Confucius, Buddha, Ricky Gervais, Rowan Atkinson and > my daughter than be in heaven with Jeffry Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Torquemada, > Kirk Cameron, David Limbaugh, Rush Limbaugh, Charles Colson, Tom DeLay, > Duane Gish, Donald Wildmon and a host of other kooks and insults to the > phrase human being.
If you only know what hell and heaven are, then you won't be saying all that.
> > On Feb 27, 5:47 pm, Tracey <Tracey.Maddow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 27, 6:28 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > > > > died and can do nothing about it?
> > > > Sounds sadistic.
> > > Yes, it sounds sadistic. Who says that God will punish someone for > > > eternity anyway. God is good and He will never do that. Everybody is > > > given the chance to be with God or not, that's all. If you choose to > > > be with God, then you're choosing heaven, otherwise you will rot in > > > hell.
> > LL: Yes, we know the routine. But what does rotting in hell for all > > eternity do for anyone? What's the purpose? Who is served by having > > people rotting in hell? The people in hell aren't going to come back > > to life, are they?
> > **************************
> > > Hell is not a physical place BTW, the same way as heaven and > > > purgatory.- Hide quoted text -
> On Feb 27, 6:14 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [Tracey]
> > > Yes, it sounds sadistic. Who says that God will punish someone for > > > eternity anyway. God is good and He will never do that. Everybody is > > > given the chance to be with God or not, that's all. If you choose to > > > be with God, then you're choosing heaven, otherwise you will rot in > > > hell.
> > You have no idea how much I would rather rot in hell with Albert > > Schweitzer, Gandhi, Confucius, Buddha, Ricky Gervais, Rowan Atkinson and > > my daughter than be in heaven with Jeffry Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Torquemada, > > Kirk Cameron, David Limbaugh, Rush Limbaugh, Charles Colson, Tom DeLay, > > Duane Gish, Donald Wildmon and a host of other kooks and insults to the > > phrase human being.
> If you only know what hell and heaven are, then you won't be saying > all that.
LL: What are they, then? Evidently we've got it wrong.
> > What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > > died and can do nothing about it?
> > Sounds sadistic.
> Even worse it can be for simply not believing, apparently. You can live > your life like a monk, hurt nobody, commit no crimes but if you don't > believe then you are roasted next to Hitler and Stalin.
> The Christian view of justice is warped enough that none should ever be > allowed to sit as a judge.
> -- > "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not > prove anything." - Nietzsche
> "You can't fall off the floor." > [Author Unknown]
Supposedly Hell was the dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where the "Fires never went out and the worms never died." You realize that the devote were taken out into the desert for the animals to feed on and the bones collected afterwards and placed in an ossium or some word like that. usOn Feb 28, 11:38 am, Tracey <Tracey.Maddow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 6:14 pm, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [Tracey]
> > > Yes, it sounds sadistic. Who says that God will punish someone for > > > eternity anyway. God is good and He will never do that. Everybody is > > > given the chance to be with God or not, that's all. If you choose to > > > be with God, then you're choosing heaven, otherwise you will rot in > > > hell.
> > You have no idea how much I would rather rot in hell with Albert > > Schweitzer, Gandhi, Confucius, Buddha, Ricky Gervais, Rowan Atkinson and > > my daughter than be in heaven with Jeffry Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Torquemada, > > Kirk Cameron, David Limbaugh, Rush Limbaugh, Charles Colson, Tom DeLay, > > Duane Gish, Donald Wildmon and a host of other kooks and insults to the > > phrase human being.
> If you only know what hell and heaven are, then you won't be saying > all that.
> > -- > > "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; > > and I'm not sure about the universe." - Einstein
> > "If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one." > > [Russian Proverb]
On Feb 28, 1:28 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > died and can do nothing about it?
> Sounds sadistic.
Although the doctrine of Hell is exceedingly difficult to grapple with, it is quite obviously a reflection of God's justice, and in no way indicates sadism. If you think otherwise, give me some biblical evidence for the idea that God gains personal pleasure out of eternal punishment of unbelievers . It seems to me that if you have rejected God your entire life, it is only fair that you will be rejected by him after death. The idea of conscious eternal punishment after death (Matt 25:30,41,46; Mark 9:43,48; Luke 16:22-24,28; Revelation 14:9-11) is definitely difficult, yet to argue it is unfair assumes we know the depth of the evil done when we rebel against God. David Kingdon puts it this way:
"sin against the Creator is heinous to a degree utterly beyond our sin- warped imaginations' [ability] to conceive of... Who would have the temerity to suggest to God what the punishment... should be?" [1]
Hell in fact complement's Jesus' atoning sacrifice. Those who reject God's perfect love made manifest in Jesus' death and resurrection deserve to be rejected by a God who is also perfectly just. If there was no punishment, justice would surely not be done.
[1] Quoted in Grudem, W., "Systematic Theology: An introduction to biblical doctrine", IVP, Nottingham, England, 2007, p.1151
On Feb 28, 1:58 am, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [Eris]
> > What is the point of punishing someone for eternity after they have > > died and can do nothing about it?
> > Sounds sadistic.
> Even worse it can be for simply not believing, apparently. You can live > your life like a monk, hurt nobody, commit no crimes but if you don't > believe then you are roasted next to Hitler and Stalin.
Yet the Christian view is that all are sinful, all "commit crimes" against God, and therefore deserve to be rejected by God and punished for eternity. It is only Jesus' atoning sacrifice for us that gives us any hope of redemption. Thus, one who rejects Jesus condemns himself to what he deserves, while one who believes and trusts in Jesus' death and resurrection accepts a gift of grace that he has no right to on his own.
> Although the doctrine of Hell is exceedingly difficult to grapple > with,
Pap, it isn't at all difficult. It is childish, simplistic and obscene.
> it is quite obviously a reflection of God's justice, and in no > way indicates sadism.
Sadism if too inadequate a word, I agree.
> "sin against the Creator is heinous to a degree utterly beyond our sin- > warped imaginations' [ability] to conceive of... Who would have the > temerity to suggest to God what the punishment... should be?" [1]
ven a rudimentary sense of justice would serve your obscene charicature of a god well.
> Hell in fact complement's Jesus' atoning sacrifice. Those who reject > God's perfect love made manifest in Jesus' death and resurrection > deserve to be rejected by a God who is also perfectly just.
Just? The word doesn't apply, make up a new one.
> If there > was no punishment, justice would surely not be done.
And that is the attitude that begins you on the way to obscenity. Anachronistic mindsets have no place in the 21st century. Catch up and contribute or bugger off.
-- "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Einstein
"How often one sees people looking far and wide for what they are holding in their hands? Why! I am doing it myself at this very moment." [Augustus William Hare and Julius Charles Hare, Guesses at Truth, by Two Brothers, 1827]
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